. . . on Feminism.
It's almost like a dirty word in my mind.
When I think of FEMINIST - I always equate it with INequality, rather than Equality. Perhaps that is not what it was meant to be, but the fact remains that our society links Feminism with men being less and women being everything.
At least, in MY 30 years, that's what I've observed. Over and over and over and over and over and . . .
Feminism is a movement. - with all sorts of agendas attached to it. I wonder how anyone could even say that feminism is a fight for equality? If men launched an equally named campaign (named . . . Masculism?? ha ha), would anyone hear about it and think, "They must want to be treated equally! Hey! I'm going to become a Masculist. Ya know . . . for equality." ;)
No. That would be stupid.
I'm not going to say that Feminism has done nothing for me. That wouldn't be true. Of course it has.
But I think that much of what has been accomplished has been at the expense of families and children. Fooling women into thinking that they can have EVERYTHING and that nothing would be sacrificed in the process. OR that whatever sacrifices (such as their marriages and children) WERE made, were worth it - to prove that they were powerful and good enough. If not better! than those around them. To prove that they were WORTH something.
Is society or are families better for Feminism? Are marriages happier?
I'd say that's questionable. In my (not so humble) opinion, I'd say an unhappy marriage 60 years ago, would probably still be an unhappy marriage today.
What about women? Are they happier? I'm not so sure.
Whatever inequalities have been in our society, they didn't come from God. I feel that it is certainly worth all of our time to fight for fairness. For equal opportunities. But a woman's VALUE does not come from that same screwed-up society. It comes from within. I believe that it comes from God. It comes because she is herself. And the same is true for men. We would be far better off if children (girls AND boys) were taught that in their HOMES. Rather than by going around, screaming FOUL! and trying to pass more and more laws (or lawsuits). --- Or by trying to bring men down.
{{{breathe}}}
Okay. Now, on to what was going to be my original short blog post about something I had on my mind. This is what I had intended before I decided to start ranting . . .
I read an interesting blog post today - from a woman named Courtney Kendrick - or C.Jane. There are some things that she thinks that are very similar to me and some that are really different, but I enjoy reading her thoughts regardless and have often come away with some good "food for thought". REALLY good food for thought.
Today she was writing about how she's realized that she is a Feminist. I thought it was interesting and couldn't help but comment to her. I have zero problem with her writing what she thinks (how stupid would that be? to think that someone else's opinion is wrong?!), but sometimes she presents things in such a way that it sounds as if ALL Mormons have had the same experiences or feelings.
So, just out of curiosity ('cause maybe I'm a freak), whether you are or were raised a Mormon or not, did you grow up thinking that boys were better, more important, or more valued in society's or God's eyes?
Yes or no, what do you think caused you to feel that way?
Because I never did.
Maybe it was being raised by a strong Mom and a Dad that treated me (and her) as if there was nothing in the world that I couldn't do or be. Or maybe I've always been completely oblivious to what was around me?
Whichever it is,
I know that this can be a sensitive issue, but I'd love to know your thoughts!
Give me some Brain Food. :)
I'd love to listen to and think about whatever you say. Today (and probably over the next few months or years), I'd love to have something to put on "my back burner" and stir around from time to time. --- As I'm trying to see the world around me more accurately, raise my daughters to be happy, and be more compassionate and understanding myself.
I have some strong opinions, but I really love other people's opinions and viewpoints, too. We are all so different and have had such different lives!
27 comments:
I followed your comment on Courtney's post and just want to tell you that I didn't grow up thinking boys were more important than girls, but that doesn't make me any less aware of the absolute inequality within the church and within our society as a whole. If you are really interested in learning about feminism (Which is NOT the idea that women are more important than men) please watch the film MissRepresentation. Also, you can listen to this podcast to find out more about mormon feminism. http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/episode-21-feminism-wants-what-you-want/
I would never have consciously said growing up that I thought boys were better than girls. As the oldest child, with a strong personality, and fabulous parents who taught me I could be anything, I grew up thinking I could do anything. BUT... I was still bombarded with messages from media and church that told me that I was not equal and that my choices were limited. I internalized that without realizing it.
If you are up for a very meaty read, go to the classic The Feminine Mystique. I read it a few months ago and was shocked by how much of it is is still relevant today even though the book was written in the early 60s.
Feminist may not be the best term to say that you believe in equality of the sexes, but until our world really is equal-- I will proudly claim it. Women have been downtrodden and oppressed, raped and treated as property for hundreds and hundreds of years. We women need to claim our own power. We are not less. And neither are men. Feminism is good for men too. My husband also proudly calls himself a feminist.
I had my own feminist awakening two years ago and wrote about it on my blog. Perhaps you'd be interested in reading those posts:
http://redheadmusings.blogspot.com/2010/12/finding-my-inner-feminist-part-1.html
http://redheadmusings.blogspot.com/2010/12/finding-my-inner-feminist-part-2.html
http://redheadmusings.blogspot.com/2010/12/finding-my-inner-feminist-part-3.html
so so funny my dear, i've had this conversation with andrea, and then two of my other friends all on separate occasions. i'm in the middle of reading book of mormon girl and....jury's still out for me on my thoughts about it. i'll let you know when i'm done. ;)
what you write is exactly how i feel about the subject right now. i've never felt less than, i've never been concerned about holding the priesthood or not, i've never felt oppressed or suppressed. maybe that's because i'm just ignorant to it? {i'm sure the feminists of the world will tell me YES--but i believe differently}
i agree, that i didn't grow up in the decades where we had no rights to vote, or work in decent jobs, and i am absolutely grateful that i have never had to feel what those women who ripped off their corsets & burned their bras had to feel. i am deeply thankful for their fight & perseverance!
but if anything, i have felt the opposite of less then... on a deep & spiritual level, i have searched and dug and now know that my worth as a woman is held so sacred and completely esteemed and honored in the eyes of God, and that His opinion is all i really care about. that is my opinion with religion aside.
but bringing religion into it, as a mormon woman, i have always felt that if i were somewhere on my own, and there was no priesthood leader around to help me out, that if i needed to call upon the powers of heaven, i could and those prayers would be heard and answered just as quickly as they would be if ANY other human being asked for those same things. and regarding the priesthood, my personal opinion is that the women who feel they are being shunned because they don't "get" to have the priesthood, really don't "get" what the priesthood is all about in the first place. but that's another subject for another day-- and not on a blog where i'm sure it could possibly invoke enormous arguments from complete strangers who just want to peg me as another "blind, juice-drinking woman and follower of an obviously men-led cult."
but like i said before, i don't really care about their opinion of me, i only care about the opinion of my God, and knowing how he feels about me as his daughter.
i married a man who feels the same way & his example is reflected in how my son treats me.
like i said above, the most important concept i have ever been able to grasp in my entire life is that of my divine worth as an INDIVIDUAL of an eternal god, not just as a woman. and as judgmental as this sounds, {because i don't personally know those i'm making assumptions about right here so this is just my opinion} is that those who are hell-bent on convincing me, the church, or the world of their worth have not yet found that deep down resolution of divine worth. and i can only speak from my experience....but i say that because once you find it, you no longer feel the need to be concerned with the actions/opinions of others who say differently.
not sure if this comment is making sense as i've written it in pieces, while performing my un-feminist duty of caring for my sweet girls who are sick today. :)
but there you have it!
climbing down from my box of soap now...
Raised Mormon.
Very strong-willed mother taught my sister and I that men were "scum" and not worth our time. Which oddly lead to both of us being daddy's girls...strange?
I always recognized that the boys seemed to get more attention from the teachers in school, that's for sure. I very distinctly remember that in 1 particular class my senior year, the male teacher would only call on male students.
I also know, that my 1st job as a "real" teacher in Baltimore the Principal (female) and VP (male) both commented that they were "pretty certain" I wouldn't make it in their school all year because I wasn't a male.
I will also say, that certain life-experiences have caused me to believe that men believe they are superior to women. That they can hold onto you for years, use you, have you do things for them, and then when you make 1 comment that shows you can think for yourself, they dump you faster than a blink of an eye.
Phew. That was a long rant. In short though, I love being a woman. I believe that God created us to be perfect beings and that He loves us (as women) in ways and in depth we can never comprehend.
I think it is interesting that your definition of feminism actually comes from what anti-feminists believe: that feminism means women are BETTER than men, and that feminism wants to be some hostile take-over of family values.
I saw this comment on Cjane's blog, and it is a good one: you would never let an anti-Mormon define Mormonism for you, so why let anti-feminists define feminism?
While there are many definitions of feminism, and many different "waves" with certain agendas, I think it is unfair to define the movement by the extremes. Again, there are some pretty hard-core extremist Mormons who misrepresent our religion as well.
Simply put the current incarnation (according to the dictionary and feminists I interact with,) feminism "is the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.")
I believe that is what God intends, despite hearing very different messages in church. I heard that I needed a man to have full worth, that I needed to support his dreams in order to be "righteous," and that my goals and dreams were secondary.
This went against what I knew about my Heavenly Parents and their plan for me. That is why I identify (proudly!) as a feminist. Because feminism aligns with what I know my Heavenly Mother and my Heavenly Father want for me.
Interesting that you're the second person to write about this that I've read (haven't read CJane for a long time) this week!!!
I don't think boys are better than girls, or the other way around. I don't even think we're equal. I was taught that we each have different responsibilities, and we are judged on an individual basis on judgement day. Not if we were better or worse than a brother or a sister.
I am quick to shy away from the topic of feminism, because I do believe I can do it all. LOL! I'm handy with the drill, in the kitchen, and have some pretty amazing kids (though I attribute that to their amazing dad.). So I don't know where I stand, I guess, other than I know I'm a child of God. and that seems to be pretty important in this day and age. :)
This whole thing leaves me a little sick to my stomach with the feeling of being misunderstood and it's really hijacked my day, but I can roll with it.
I would say, please don't leave a comment here if you are going to imply that I haven't done my homework. That's pretty disrespectful. I've browsed through fMh today, and in the past, and I simply do NOT agree with MUCH of what is written there. Specifically that there are doctrinal inequalities in the Church. I STRONGLY disagree. And I'm sorry that some people come away feeling differently. That's really sad.
Please don't leave a comment here if you are trying to just further the comments that you have already made on c.jane's blog. If you have a comment about what I wrote there, let's keep it there, eh? *wink*
I don't need a bunch of reading on other websites.
What I was asking was WHAT MADE YOU FEEL THE WAY YOU DO? WHAT EXPERIENCES IN YOUR LIFE HAVE SHAPED WHAT YOU BELIEVE? I keep getting vague references to "in church", but no specifics. What were these "bombardments"? How is it that I've never heard them? At least not in any way that would give me any question as to whether they were true or not! Nothing more than juvenile barbs aimed at both men and women --- holdovers from elementary school, I suppose... There are morons both within and without the Church. It's sad that many people shape their life outlook on a couple of dummies!
@Lynsey and Meggy, :) thanks for responding. I really love you both and like hearing what you have to say.
@Katrina, I read through your blog posts. They were very sweet. I didn't agree with ALL of your conclusions, but much of what you wrote, I feel the same. Toward your comments at the end of "Part 3", I feel like those things are basic human rights (so long as we're not talking about abortion). I don't feel like Feminism needs to be the vehicle to bring those rights to fruition. I feel that education of both men and women is the key. That doesn't feel like Feminism, it feels like being human. ;) At least to ME.
Rachel, Thanks for taking the time to read my posts. I appreciate it. I hope that you didn't feel attacked at all. I think that the other commenters were genuinely responding to what seemed like a desire in your original post to understand why some women call themselves feminists. I think that the suggested materials were given with that intent.
It would take a lot to list all the ways that women, myself included, are made to fell like less than. I haven't had anything horrific happen to me. I've had a really good life. But I've also lived in a world that really is a "man's world". Women are objectified. We are patronized. We are put on pedestals, instead of being seen as equal.
THere is so much I could say but I don't feel like I can possibly say it all in one little blog comment. I really do hope you'll watch Miss Representation. It is a fantastic film that gets at the heart of the problem in the media. Another great one is Half the Sky. I don't know how anyone could watch those films and still say we don't need feminism.
I think part of this might just be semantics. Yes, women's rights ARE HUMAN RIGHTS. But for so much of the world's history, they haven't been. Women have been treated as less than human. We need feminists who are willing to fight for women. To put us on an equal playing field.
Also, sorry if you are so sick of my movie recommendations, but there is a great little PBS documentary on netflix about Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony called Not For Ourselves Alone. Really, really good to see what these women did to ensure we get the right to vote.
Sorry I rambled so much. I am so passionate about this topic. I guess I stumbled across your blog on a day when I hope one person hearing my perspective might make a difference. :)
All the best to you.
I'm sorry if my early comments seemed vague.
First, if you never heard a lesson or talk in church that made you feel "less than" I think that is great. And lucky. It doesn't mean that other people did not. Here are some specific experiences:
My mother was YW President in Arizonia. Every year, the ward paid for the YM to take an elaborate week boating trip for Scouts in Lake Powell. As a result, there was very little money left for the YW to have a Girls Camp. They had to go to a crappy campsite in the middle of the desert with porta potties. When my Mom asked for more equitable funding, she was criticized for questioning Priesthood authority. My Mom is one of the most devoted and faithful women I know, and she was deeply hurt by those accusations.
Later, in a different ward, when I myself was in YW, we put on a huge Spaghetti dinner for the Scouts every year so they could have MORE money for their programs. My husband has served as a ward clerk, and the YM already get THREE TIMES MORE MONEY for programs than the YW. And yet, the YW would get together, cook, set up the cultural hall, serve, and clean up a nice dinner so they YM could have more money.
I sat in YW lesson's that told me if I dressed immodestly, I deserved whatever inappropriate or degrading comments were sent my way. Not that boys needed to be held accountable for their actions at all times. I feel like women bear a very heavy burden in the church to not only control their own behavior, but that of men as well.
In an abusive relationship I experienced growing up, I was told that my abuser would not be punished because he was a worthy Priesthood holder.
These events happened in four different wards.
But even if I had a universally great experience in church, I would still be a feminist. Because I believe with my whole heart that God is "no respecter of persons." Our Heavenly Parents don't think I deserve less in church programs because I am female. Our Heavenly Parents don't ignore my prayers because they are different or disagree with those of a Priesthood holder.
God sees me as a person, as a human, not just a gender with a prescribed role.
I understand you have different opinions and that is fine. But you asked for specific experiences, so I answered.
Lastly, I feel like lots of women who choose a traditional role in the church don't feel like there are inequities. Perhaps that is because their role is accepted already. If you are a woman and a SAHM in the church, you aren't constantly validating your choices, you are praised.
When I was at home with my daughter, I was much more readily accepted by my ward, and it was much easier for me to ignore or accept inequities in the church, since I constantly received validation for my life choices.
It was much harder to participate in church when I had to listen to talks by Pres. Benson criticizing working mothers.
I am happy you have a wonderful experience with the church. I mean that sincerely. However, many women do not, and their voices are just as valuable, and their experiences just as valid. My favorite LDS authors Emma Lou Thayne (who wrote the hymn "Where Can I Turn for Peace?") and Laurel Thatcher Ulrich wrote a book called "All God's Critters Got a Place in the Choir." I think of that title every time someone comes to a different conclusion than I do on a subject. It's a nicer way to live. :)
(That book is really good, btw, and not in a "do your feminism homework" kind of way, just really good.)
Here's the book description and link if you are interested:
http://www.amazon.com/All-Gods-Critters-Place-Choir/dp/1562362267
Rich with the traditional and alive to the contemporary, this sampler of personal essays, talks, and poems explores topics of special interest to Mormon women. The authors celebrate the variety and complexity in the lives of modern women: from giving birth and facing death, to the whys of listening to teenagers and the wherefores of being good neighbors. Whether writing at the hearth of family concerns or in the arena of public issues, the two authors embrace honest differences as they bridge distances, seek harmony in the midst of change, and hold fast to faith.
Thank you, both Stefanie and Katrina. I enjoyed reading your words. I think much of what we are discussing is semantics - just as you said, Katrina.
I was looking for some specifics, Stefanie, so thanks for sharing. I hope that you don't think that I disagree with your comments about God not being a respecter of persons - or that to Him I am his daughter, with infinite value, not just a gender. I whole-heartedly agree with you on that!
The experiences that you cited, *I* think, stem from PEOPLE and not LDS doctrine. Leaders are not perfect and the instances that you stated are very real and probably common - to some extent. But to me, that stems from pig-headedness. NOT the Church.
I think that too many women that call themselves Feminist Mormons are getting the two intertwined.
I am happy that you both responded to my blog post. It has made me think good and hard. I'm excited to read the book that you suggested, Stefanie. I will.
I would love to talk with you in person, but alas, I can't devote any more time on my blog to going around and around the issue. I've been trying all day to write a coherent response, but I've just been interrupted for the umpteenth time today --- this time about a drink from a kid who should have been asleep an hour ago. Again. Thank you for your comments. I hope that you put as much thought into how someone could think different than you on this issue as I have. I think that your points are valid and I think mine are too. If you misunderstand what I mean, I'm sorry for you - but I think I've been pretty clear.
Left a lengthy-ish comment and the cyber toilet flushed it.
Basically I don't need my role/worth/value/whatever defined by a label or a movement. My husband and I have a lot of give and take in our relationship and I love observing the dynamic of it. And, I am not a feminist. That term has an "agenda" attached to it. Not sure what it is, but it just feels devisive. Devisive is not what Christ teaches.
There will never be equality because we are NOT equal, we are DIFFERENT. I will NEVER have big broad shoulders like my husband. He will ALWAYS beat me in an arm wrestle, praise the Lord. He will NEVER have a uterine-tracking-device. (old Roseanne Barr comedy skit... so funny) I will ALWAYS be mentally tougher when I'm sick than he is. I will ALWAYS have a keener understanding of the emotional needs of our children than he. WE ARE NOT THE SAME. I DON'T WANT TO BE THE SAME.
There will never be equality in this world, even from woman to woman or man to man because EVERYONE has different strengths. We compliment each other. It's a beautiful dance.
It's always been my thought that men have to be "given" the Priesthood, but women are born with our own Power and it can't be revoked like the Priesthood can be.
Lucky us.
I'm sure I'll get some mudslingers winding up to pitch something at me. :) I'll just stand here behind my little sheild and let it roll off. I love my beliefs as much as the next guy. Or girl. ;-)
Thanks, Clank. I think my brain got flushed down the cyber toilet today, so I'll read your first comment when the lights come on tomorrow.
Love you, Lady.
Hi Rachel,
I met you once so many years ago when you were first married (I think) and living in Rexburg. Lynsey's husband, Ben, was my FHE brother and I vaguely remember going to Nels' apartment for a party? I can't quite recall. But of the few blogs I still read, yours is one. You are so honest! I love it. Hope that's not too weird.
Anyway, I used to read CJane quite frequently but stopped a while ago. Quite honestly, I'm sick of her. I think while everyone has a desire to be loved and approved of, hers is unhealthy. I think she does thing for attention sometimes and it bugs. I saw your comment on her feminist post and then just read yours. HOLLA and AMEN to your post. I never, ever once felt that I was less than. In fact, I can remember YW lessons that in a round about way said I had strong influence over the YM and it was important for me to be a good example to them.
Words like "awakening" and "movement" make me throw up a little in my mouth. It's just so ridiculous. As many people have said here already, we're not unequal we just have different roles. Roles that are BOTH essential to our Father's plan. If people are going to be a part of this feminist movement (barf) then there needs to be balance and caution not to cross a line and proclaim our leaders wrong. I have only ever heard in Conference that women are to be valued and loved and cherished. That's important for women to gain an education and develop their talents. And if we needed men to be valued then why the heck was Sheri Dew or Barbara Thompson called to the RS general presidency?
I don't know. This whole thing makes me grumpy.
On a lighter note, your girls are gorgeous and so is your skin. I have been using oil on mine as well and while in a million years I never would have thought..... it totally works.
Jill and Clancy said it much more eloquently than I. :) Wow, batman! If I know anybody who does their homework, it's You, dear Rachel!!! I think you are spot on in saying many 'experiences' are shaped by people, not doctrine. :) Amen to that. :) Love you, lady!!!
JILL! Thanks for coming out of the closet! :) Welcome to my blog! We should be internet friends. Feel free to comment more often! :)
Well, I think when many people have similar experiences to the ones described by me and Cjane, we have a problem. A quick glance at the comments on her blog indicates that many women are growing up feeling "less than."
Whether or not you agree with the views of feminism, there is a problem when so many women feel "less than." Somehow, the doctrine is being wrongly interpreted to give people that idea. You don't think the doctrine itself needs to be changed? Fine. But the way we present (or the way individuals present it,) needs to be changed.
Feminism absolutely has an agenda, and I think it is a good one. Feminism is the idea that men or women have equal WORTH, not that they need to be the exact same. That equal worth allows them to make choices that work best for their family, be it a SAHM and working Dad, or dual working parents, or whatever.
A Stake President or Bishop who sees a woman as of equal WORTH to a man (again, not the exact same, because individuals are different, and those differences are beautiful,) wouldn't have treated my mother (or me, or others,) unfairly.
In the church (again, funding discrepancies are church wide, so the idea that is is just some "rogue" leaders is false,) if women and men are considered of equal worth, the funding for their programs would be equitable.
I think feminism is a movement that can help the church realize it's true potential, not to divide. Seeing men and women as humans of equal worth helps us see each other like the Savior sees us.
Feminism absolutely recognizes that people are different, and that is okay. But those differences shouldn't mean that we should be treated differently, more specifically unfairly.
Thanks for listening to me and participating in this discussion. I don't think I can convince anyone that feminism isn't this big evil monster that makes women be the "exact same as men." But it is a movement that has improved my life, and the life of others. Not because it made me a man, but because it allowed me to recognize my own divine worth in an institution that did not.
That's all from me, folks.
Be well.
Hi Rachel, I was led to your blog through your comments on CJane's post. I have to say, I very much respect your approach to this topic, because while you disagree with feminism, you also seem to genuinely want to understand people whose experiences are different than yours. I think that's awesome. I also appreciate the respectful nature of the other comments that have been made.
I grew up thinking feminists were the bad guys(gals). And I still totally agree with this paragraph in the OP:
"Whatever inequalities have been in our society, they didn't come from God... a woman's VALUE does not come from that same screwed-up society. It comes from within."
YES! However, I think it bears pointing out that our culture, our screwed up society, while not a full-on patriarchy here in America (anymore), is nevertheless very patriarchal. That is, it's not that ONLY men have power within society, but that those with power and influence tend to be men. It's changed a lot in the last few centuries--thanks to feminists like Susan B. Anthony and other suffragists who fought for women to vote. Thanks to them, a woman is no longer considered her husband's property and can more fully act as a free agent in society.
I think it's because Western society has been so patriarchal for so long that those who work for equality and fairness have come to be called feminists, because in a patriarchy, where men historically have more freedom and power, it's obviously women who need support to achieve equality. I've heard some people try to adopt the term "equalist". Whatever. I don't care what you call it. And it sounds like equality is something you can get behind, it's just that somehow the word feminist has taken on this horrible meaning for some people.
As for myself, I was raised in a mildly dysfunctional family--there were always lot of elephants in the room, things we didn't talk about. But I had an absolutely fantastic ward family, and I think I'd say I was raised at least as much by my ward as I was by my own parents. I very much clung to the church--to general conference, to ward and stake firesides, to church on Sunday and Mutual on Wednesday. And in those experiences, I learned to respect men more than women--not that women weren't of worth, but that men were to be respected a little more--because I saw men holding positions of importance and authority and power, and women always subordinated to the men. Of course I was never explicitly taught that men were better than women or boys better than girls, of course not. No one would ever say that. I don't think anyone in the church believes that. It's just that because men held positions of authority and women only held positions under the men, I grew up with a deeply held and usually unacknowledged belief that men were more important. I looked to men for examples of how to be strong and authoritative, because I had so few examples of strong women. I was basically starved for strong female examples, mentors. And this lack of strong women was reinforced when I studied history, science, literature, music. Music especially. As a young pianist, I was very bothered by such a lack of great female classical composers.
I can see how if a girl DOES have strong female role models growing up, her view of men and women in the church would be very different. I don't know why men in the church have priesthood(and therefore more governing authority) and women don't, and I don't really want to get into that, only to say that a lot of girls and women see that as a disconnect.
(Oops! comment was too long)
...Anyway, I've been rambling on way too long, and it's probably a ridiculous TMI from a stranger! But CJane's post, and your comments and post kept me up last night with all these thoughts, so I thought I'd share. I think it's really important for girls these days to understand and appreciate the sacrifices of early feminists like the suffragists, whose work allows there to be a present and future where the work of women is valued as highly as that of men... So that girls today and in the future don't have to be so bereft of examples of women doing great things, writing symphonies, doing important scientific research--so that more girls can grow up like you did, truly believing that they can do anything they want. Because they can, and I think feminists play a really important part in that.
Thank you, Monica! Your comments are very well-thought-out and MUCH appreciated. Thank you for answering so honestly. And for speaking from the heart.
I 100% agree with you. You answered exactly what I was wanting to know.
I am so thankful for those women who have sacrificed a great deal for the freedoms that I enjoy today. We are very blessed! I wouldn't and never have discredited that work. I thank God for those who are brave enough to make a difference in the world around them.
Priesthood authority discussions aside ---- one of the main reasons that I feel so disconnected from feminists is that for all the virtuous cries for equality, the feminist movement TODAY has a far grander agenda than equal opportunity for women. (Which I've never met a woman in my LIFE that didn't support those ideals.) Namely abortion and the like. I will NEVER join forces with a group that supports something that I consider heinous - at best. Even organizations that SHOULD be great, like Girl Scouts, promote abortion. THOSE agendas of "The Feminist Movement" are completely unacceptable to me.
I feel that perhaps many who associate themselves with the term Feminist, don't really know what they are supporting.
I also feel that there tends to be a lot of fault-finding. I could be completely off-base (however much my own experiences tell me otherwise), but I believe there tends to be an attitude of "kick me!" among feminists. Walking around and looking for the next offender --- whether a husband's comment, a child's observation, prophetic counsel, or the idiotic jab of an imperfect man.
I would love to see all women stand up and fight for their own voice - for their own opportunities. To LIFT WHERE WE STAND. To use their power and influence for good in this world. But that power doesn't come from a movement like Feminism. It comes from within. It comes from God and from following His laws. That I KNOW. And all too often, in the search for their voice and power, women of today are walking on the rights of another human being - all under the guise of "equality".
Oh my, how I love a good debate! Especially with such thoughtful, intelligent opinions being expressed on both sides of the issue on such an important topic. I stoppped here just to read, but now have a desire to offer my perspective because I truly believe that this sort of discourse is needed for growth today in the minds of all - both men and women, wherever they may interact (church, workplace, dating scene, home, whatev).
First off, let's once and for all clearly split the difference between The LDS Gospel and the people that participate in it. Whether you believe the doctrine to be perfect or not (I personally do), I think we can all agree that the PEOPLE populating its congregations are NOT - they are flawed, as all humans are. I've been very offended by misguided sacrament talks (one in particular where the High Councilman asserted that if we women would just watch our diet and get more exercise we wouldn't have so many self-esteem problems - I'm sharing this not to bash but because you have asked for specifics) and continue to take issue with the very different way guidance on sexual issues is given to young men vs. young women. However, I, like you, have done my research and have poured over actual doctrine to understand what Heavenly Father wants us to know on the topic. I have come to believe that these flawed "human" acts are isolated incidents based on one person's imperfect interpretation of gospel doctrine. I take issue with that person, not what they claim to represent because I know better.
However...
THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN, my friends! We will offend and be offended and make many many mistakes because we are flawed humans, living in a ridiculously flawed society. A society which, in fact, teaches almost the exact opposite of what the LDS doctrine teaches. We are nonetheless raised in this society and affected by it. Women's continued run-ins with inequality in our "enlightened" times are real and need to be called attention to so that true equality in the way we TREAT eachother can become a reality.
I agree with Clancy - I will never be the same as my husband, and don't want to be. I feel we both posess unique qualities that benefit one another, our family, and the world we choose to inhabit. But I'll be honest - while I CHOOSE to stay at home with my children, I relish the fact that it was MY CHOICE. The Feminism I identify with (and think is a more accurate portrayal than the man-haters that many think represent the movement) are those who recognize that we are DIFFERENT, but EQUAL. Equal in the way we deserve to be treated in a workplace, community, and yes - even church. Furthermore, we're not all exactly alike and shouldn't be pinned into stereotypes. Some girls like to sew, some like to shoot guns. I'm not a big fan of either but I will teach my daughter to listen to her inner-voice and not let anyone tell her what she can or can't do because of her gender. I will teach my sons the same thing. I will also teach them both to appreciate girls for their unique qualities - not just their "traditionally feminine" traits and certainly not for their appearance - despite this being society's most prevelent and equality-damaging message that seems to only be getting worse as we "progress" (and this is a whole other ball of feminist wax I could get into but we'd be here all day so I'll refrain). I will teach them to appreciate EVERYONE'S differences and treat EVERYONE with respect and love they deserve as children of God.
There are many things that make men and women different (and always will), but one important thing that makes us equal - Our God-given worth, as you stated before. There is definitely common ground here, my friends.
I just had to comment so that you could have 22 comments! Woo woo. just kidding. All of this has given me food for thought and I am grateful for BOTH my strong parents. I never once felt less than my brothers. I worked hard along side them on the family farm and got paid the same. :) I am not a feminist. I love my role as a sahm and find it deeply satisfying. I am so grateful for a husband who is tender, gentle, and has never made me feel less. (in fact it's probably the opposite...) I wonder if people feel the need to "be" a feminist or to "not be" a feminist depending on their own personal circumstances/experiences. I have not had any experiences in church where I have felt less than either....maybe they are to come? I have a close sister who is very much a feminist but who is a single 34yr old mormon woman working in a "man's" career world. Her life is so different than mine and I love and respect her opinions. Either way...I'm sure I could write much more but I think you've got it all covered and everyone around here needs help brushing their teeth, reading books and snuggling. Love you Rachel. Love your blog and I"m going to work up my courage to touch the moss on our trees so I can make a wreath as cute as yours. I don't know why I'm such a baby!
Amen, to you, Lauren. I agree with EVERYTHING that you said. Thank you for stating it so beautifully. I like a good debate, too. Obviously. :)
I really just feel that to define one's self as a Feminist automatically associates you with the other MANY issues and agendas that "the Feminist Movement" of this day and age are screeching about. And while I agree with the equality that YOU talk about, I don't agree with Them. I feel that as goodness and understanding are taught in our homes, it spreads to society in a much more righteous and real way than by lawsuits and Affirmative Action.
But that kind of REAL change takes time and generations of people. I believe it will happen naturally in our society if we just let it.
I think there SHOULD be equal opportunity for all people --- based on equal qualifications. --- I feel in today's American society white men are probably far more discriminated against than women.
But whatever the problems, I feel that as a society, we would be much better off to keep government OUT of that business and allow time for change in the minds and hearts of our people through loving teaching and examples in the home. --- And the fact remains that the HOMES of our people are where the most suffering is happening.
The Feminist Movement has been part of that. I don't think women should HAVE to stay at home. Like you, Lauren, I'm thankful that's MY choice. But I do feel that the world we live in today is telling young girls that in the name of Feminism and Equality, screw everyone! because YOU are the center of the universe. I believe it is engendering selfishness. I don't feel that the "pop culture" view of feminism today teaches anything about sacrifice, restraint, or forgiveness.
And I feel that there is a really big difference between the brand of feminism that you can identify with and what is being taught in our society.
Even though I agree with equal treatment and equal opportunities, I don't feel that is the same thing as what the pop Feminist is fighting for.
And on a completely religious side of this - I don't think we need to be feminists when we have the Relief Society. We have the biggest women's organization in the world at our disposal. An organization that is TRULY about relief and aid. About education and literacy. About lifting women and teaching women. Teaching not only about the world around them, but about the power that God himself has given to them. The Relief Society was organized to give women exactly what you are talking about! Relief Society was not organized for craft nights and "mommy and me" clubs. (and if you've noticed, much of those kind of things are phasing out.) In recent years, there has been a rebirth of R.S. going back to it's roots and in teaching us its history.
I believe that God has given us the tools and the vehicle to make and be the changes we seek. I don't think that we need to be feminists when we know we are His daughters.
Rachel, I am so pleased to have you as my daughter. You are awesome! I love you.
Speaking of the Relief Society here is a very cool quote for you from a book I've been reading "President George Albert Smith taught that when Joseph Smith 'turned the key for the emancipation of womankind, it was turned for all the world, and from generation to generation the number of women who can enjoy the blessings of religious liberty adn civil liberty has been increasing' Nearly every major advancement benefitting women occurred after the Prophet used priesthood keys to open privileges for women."
- from "The Beginning of Better Days Divine Instruction to Women From the Prophet Joseph Smith"
I'm probably repeating what other have said, but I believe that if you are feeling "less than" based on something, someone, one time, a long time ago said.....you need to rise above. There is so much uplifting literature out there (LDS and not). Take the time to enrich your life. Be in nature if you aren't a reader. Observe the beauties of MOTHER EARTH. The Lord knew 100% what He was doing when He named our beautiful world. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the only eyes I care about are: My father in heaven, my elder brother Jesus Christ, and my family. I like to hope this comment will perhaps deter any further negative ones our awesome friend Rachel will face from posting her opinion on her blog. She has girlies to care for and protect in these uncertain and perilous times.
Love u Rach!
Thanks Rachel for the post! I have been thinking about it for days. It is an extremely interesting subject that tends to get emotions boiling on both sides =).
We are indebted to the tireless work of many women like Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Stanton who secured the rights that we enjoy today.
But the original goals of both the first wave and the second wave of feminism have been met. What do we need now that we don't have?
Today, women have the right to vote.
Today, women can run and hold offices.
Today, mothers have MORE rights than fathers.
Today, women own property.
Today, women get paid more than men for the same number of years of work experience in the same job. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/), and (http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/13290-enough-already-with-the-women-get-paid-less-nonsense).
Today, girls exceed boys at every level of education from elementary on. (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/25-fewer-men-women-graduate-college-obama-its-great-accomplishment-america), and (http://www.good.is/posts/women-now-earning-more-bachelor-s-and-graduate-degrees-than-men/), and (http://chronicle.com/article/Young-Women-Are-More-Likely/133980/).
Some congratulate this “achievement.” WHY? What happened to equality? Then again maybe that is not what they are after.
Today, women can file for divorce. In fact, women file for two-thirds of all divorces.(http://chronicle.com/article/Young-Women-Are-More-Likely/133980/).
Today, women have many options for birth control.
Today, women can have abortions.
We have achieved many important milestones. But what is left???
The tide has turned... and it is far from equality.
What is the feminist movement trying to achieve?
I have some ideas READ HERE (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/books/review/the-end-of-men-by-hanna-rosin.html?src=recg&_r=3&), and HERE (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/men-who-needs-them.html).
It seems feminism these days is about more than equality.
How sad.
Personally, I look forward to a day when people are no longer judged by their gender or race but by the content of their character.
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